Art teachers should have the space to be rebellious

Joanna Brinton: It’s funny that we’re back in the studio making the Portal Planner – doing the same thing but a year on. I was thinking that there is something interesting in repeating a process after time away…

Freya Kehoe: Yeah, I think there is.

… And acknowledging the different position that we’re in now to when we started making the first calendar. I definitely had no idea what you actually wanted it to look like, or what you wanted to bring to it, how your creative practice would be represented and whether that had to involve you making lots of marks, being very hands on. 

This time, instead of that type of discovery or curiosity, we have resources to draw on, in a way.

Freya: Yeah. We have now. 

Joanna: But also, less hope. [Laughter.]

Freya: I think, yeah, unfortunately less hope, but maybe hope in different ways. 

Joanna: Or just more knowledge, I guess, which is empowering in itself. We know what we can do.

Freya: Yeah, definitely, and I think, new hopes. Because there are things we did, like the clay, that I would like to do more of now, whereas when you first introduced it, I wasn’t quite sure.  

Joanna: I wasn’t sure if I was just imposing something on you?

Freya: No, I definitely really enjoyed that and I have been thinking about it a lot. Do you ever have thoughts whirring around and then sometimes you realise, ‘Oh, I’ve actually been thinking about that for ages and not giving it space in my head?’ I feel like the clay stuff has been there for ages. 

Joanna: I think I do that a lot.

Freya: I think everyone does it and it’s something that I’ve been really conscious of because they can either be really positive or really negative thoughts. Sometimes you do need to go, ‘Hang on a minute, why am I thinking about this?’ and maybe, ‘Let’s let that go.’ You have to think about what’s worthwhile for your time. 

I’ve been trying to think about those things a bit more and how certain things make you feel, in terms of whether you give them space going forward, or actually you just let them go.

Joanna: Yeah. It’s interesting how, in any kind of practice, you forget how far you’ve already come. I had this tension between not wanting to do too much in this project using cutouts, because they’re elements I use in my own practice, but then as this unfolded it became clear they’re things that we’re both interested in. So, then why would I not use them?  

Actually, that’s something that’s often been a problem for me – thinking that each project has to be completely new and different but that approach negates the learning that’s gone on before. 

Maybe that’s something I also used to do in the teaching side of my practice quite a lot too. I felt like I had to do something new, because otherwise I might become one of those teachers who just churns out the same stuff – but I wasn’t acknowledging that in each different situation, with each different group of people, it is new and they can gain a lot from it. 

Freya: I think that’s a good point, and definitely something that I have thought about as well. It’s important to not forget about all of that – the new experiences but also the expertise. 

Joanna: Yeah, and not dismissing it, maybe? Or just celebrating that, actually, I’ve spent time on this and I’ve enjoyed it and I’d like to do it again, which is that repetition of a task in a way. 

Freya: Yeah. Some of the exhibitions that we visited as part of the project – like the Marina Abramović show at the Royal Academy – I really enjoyed because we got to see such a variation of that person’s practice and life throughout and how their life and practice intertwined. 

It does remind you, you will come back to things, repeat things. You will touch on things and develop them, drop them and come back to them later. I think that’s something that can get forgotten about in a way – how important that stuff is. But I think it’s only once you have time and space to reflect on it as well that you have those realisations.

Joanna: Because while you’re in it, you’re just too in it! 

Did you first come to the studio in December last year or was it November?  

Freya: Yes, November 2023.

Joanna: So many hopes. [Laughter.]

Freya: In the one year…

The calendar actually really made me laugh, because I was looking at it again recently and the words we printed on each month were accurate. Even though it was a complete accident I feel like it ended up prompting us throughout the project.

Joanna: Because initially I wasn’t even sure if you would use the planner... 

I don’t know if you even got started in January? We can look through the calendar and we’ll remember. 

Freya: I think February is where we started changing; thinking about space and changing things. 

Joanna: Okay, so March is testing.

At the end of February there was the cupboard. 

Freya: And the table. I wrote, ‘Disruption via a table.’

Freya: I think around that time we were talking about there not being any space for mistakes, or change and for testing. 

Joanna: I mean, obviously we had that exciting moment of moving the cupboard around and then immediately the closing down of that. We did a minor, disruptive, potentially rebellious, act, but then were immediately met with what the repercussions of that. I had not expected those. 

Freya: Same, really. 

Joanna: It was then that I thought, ‘Oh, I’m not sure how we’re going to get the things done that we’ve been talking about, or the ideas that we had been running through.’ Even in the making of the calendar.

I know when you first came here, you were talking about restrictions. But then through our conversation and the things that we were looking at, that wasn’t the main subject anymore – we kind of opened things out.

Then, immediately after that, we went into the school and tried to make those things happen, restrictions became apparent. 

Freya: I think that continued as the project went on. What was interesting for me is how you can create freedom through your approach to things. I think that the idea of finding space, in a way – that is rebellion. Finding space for you within this kind of organisation or network in a school is a powerful thing. The students are important but as a teacher you’re a big part of that relationship too.

Freya: I will always remember speaking to a GCSE student about a ‘mistake’ they’d made and weren’t happy with. I was saying, ‘Maybe we’ll just hide that or maybe we can take that out’. 

I was considering the sketchbook as something edited for exam purposes. Now, when I teach I’m really pro and vocal about making mistakes: how they’re important and we want to see all of that within their journey.

Joanna: So, not editing students' sketchbooks in the same way?

Freya: Yeah, not editing and not having them as these perfect…

Joanna: ...display portfolio things.

Freya: Yeah.

Joanna: Which is not a sketchbook, really. But also, just appreciating the learning in those mistakes and looking back at what’s changed.  

I found that time really hard. Because for me rebellion seemed to be connected with something very active, so it was frustrating when anything that was active or visible got rejected and wasn’t possible. 

But then I think that’s why, as the project went on, rest and space in a different way became more important.

Freya: Yeah, definitely.

Joanna: The realisation that often it wasn’t about changing the thing that you were encountering but changing yourself, so that the encounter was different and your takeaways were different, I guess. Which I think was back to the Yves Klein judo text – that gentle push… or going about things a different way?

Freya: Actually, I think there were quite a lot of things in the project that could be classed as a mistake, things that just didn’t quite work out.

Yet, I think that's where we learned the most and they became the things that ended up having the most impact on the project. Which is such a testament to the journey that you can go on.

Joanna: I think it was interesting for me, as an outsider to the organisation, that those attempts revealed a lot of what you were experiencing within the organisation. You could tell me, ‘Oh that would be tricky.’ But I wouldn’t really believe it. Then it became really apparent, which I think was useful in terms of the journey of the project… Encountering those things personally made me understand how we needed to look in a different way, to find this kind of space.

Freya: Yes. Considering my actions and how they could impact students positively became one of the most rebellious parts of the project – by reclaiming that space again and a practice of testing through conversation.

Joanna: Is that when you started asking the students about how their day was?

Freya: Yes, at the start of every lesson, as a really quick way to gauge how they were and to develop a practice of care and community in the classroom. I participated too, and it became a part of our daily practice. 

I wrote in the planner in April, ‘We’re thinking about the push-pull of teaching, of schools, of making art and the process.’ Actually, I think that push-pull of conversation developed throughout the project too as we all reclaimed space for exchange and community in the classroom. 

Joanna: That’s really interesting, because obviously there is that part of art practice where you can be immersed in something and maybe you don’t want to be talking. I get that. But in terms of teaching art, the idea that there wasn’t conversation and exchange was kind of completely at odds with my understanding.

Freya: There’s a lot more freedom in the classroom now. Students are more empowered in a way, to say what they think and to have thoughts and exchange. 

Joanna: Do you think there’s anything that you would take from that change of approach? How do you feel about that in terms of rebellion?

Freya: I think it’s been a learning process for me, because it’s also been about where you put your time and energy. What’s the fight that you’re wanting to push for and why?

Freya: I definitely feel like I have more to say on the topic of conversation in the classroom and its impact on making and process, whereas when we were doing the project, I knew that the restrictions put in place didn’t feel quite right. But I wasn’t solid in my opinion.  

Stepping out and then coming back in with a different mindset has also allowed me to see those things in a fresh light, and to see how positive that one change – obviously, there could be others – has been. 

Joanna: I think, in a way, that was one of the reasons that we tried to make the cupboard – so that you would, even in really small terms, be able to remove yourself from a situation for a short period and allow time for, I guess, reflection, adrenaline to dissipate, all those kinds of things. Is that something that you are still using or have found useful? Or, yeah, is the cupboard even still there? [Laughter.]

Freya: The cupboard space is still there, with varying degrees of mess. But it is still there and it does still get used. I suppose the daily practice aspects of the project, when we started to think about care, the food element, also rest, and even the reading group, speaking to others about their experiences, has definitely allowed me to have a different mindset, some perspective. Sometimes I will think, ‘Oh, I’m just gonna go get a coffee or go for a walk.’

Joanna: Leave the building. 

Freya: Yeah, I try to leave the building, or use the cupboard just to escape and reset. I remember when we did the ARTISTEACHER event there was a person that said that they go home to walk their dog at lunch, and I was thinking, ‘Wow!’ … I’ve really been thinking about that quite a lot, because I think stepping out and going back in can help massively to refresh and restart. 

Joanna: It did seem like the most luxurious statement, but, very rebellious as well, to be maintaining an aspect of your family life, really.

Joanna: I think that was really interesting because everyone in the room was like, ‘Imagine that!’ Imagine being able to have a point in your day where you can have a connection with something completely outside of school and how that could just change your perspective when you came back in.

Freya: Now I try to think about those kinds of things with the students as well. You know, how sometimes a change in routine or a pause can refresh or restart the lesson.

I think the biggest discovery for me has been those practices of care. How, by finding space for yourself, you can impact others as well. I think that’s something that I really underestimated. 

When we first started the project, I was saying teaching is all encompassing. I felt that my whole identity was wrapped up in teaching. I think through doing the project I’ve ended up being able to separate that out a bit more, which is so obvious that that’s beneficial for everybody involved.

Joanna: It was also that you had met some teachers whose practice was very entwined with their teaching and that was quite attractive as well. There are two sides, aren't there? You want to bring your practice to your teaching but then you also yearn to have this separation, so that your entire life isn’t consumed by the school or the teaching.

Freya: Yeah, definitely. There was a person in the Reading Group that was a ceramicist and they closed the classroom one lunchtime or after school a week to just throw pots as a way to make time for themselves and their practice. 

Joanna: Have you thrown any more pots since the project ended?

Freya: I haven’t thrown any pots! However, I really want to do more of that. I think maybe next year – I was looking at pottery courses. I want to learn a bit more about the glazes. I’ve been really interested in colour and how the glazes can change. I still really like this pot, the broken pot.

Freya: I think what’s funny is the project itself was such a period of consideration and testing. Having this break and then reflecting on the project after time away has opened up a whole new set of questions. 

I’ve said to you before that this project felt therapeutic. I feel like now, after really thinking about myself as an artist-teacher, my practice and the students’ practice – I really want to adapt things, open projects out to explore big questions a bit more. For example, I want to bring in questions like: who is art for? What is the value of art? What can art become? Thinking about how it can be powerful and relevant for all if we open things out and discuss ideas together. 

Joanna: It’s so relevant to the stages that those young people are going through and how important it can be for them.

Freya: I think that’s something that we don’t do enough of.

Joanna: You mentioned students asking you, ‘Am I going to get a job out of this? What’s this going to give me?’ That kind of thing. I wonder if the answer to that in this current economic climate and political situation is a bit uncertain or not great, whether it’s that the art lesson could be offering you something else.

Freya: Yeah, definitely.

Joanna: A space for growth in a different way, that maybe isn’t necessarily going to end up with you having a directly connected kind of economic… 

Freya: ...outcome?

Joanna: I know that sounds awful, but I just wonder if that’s the thing. If it’s constantly being steered towards, ‘Well, you study so that you will have a good job. You study so you’ll be successful.’ Unpicking what is success, and what it is to be a successful human, maybe you are a human who is enriched. A human who has got to grips with something that they’ve been thinking about or something that they’re going through. How can that occur in an art room?

Freya: Definitely. I think leaving space for that is important, because I think in teaching you're always filling the space. It’s renowned for paperwork and things on top of things. But I think in the classroom, it’s being mindful of what might pop up and actually does deserve time and space.

Joanna: And often there isn’t space.

Freya: That’s what I mean, yeah.

Joanna: Push that emotion, pause. Quick, don’t let them move, because something might come out!

Freya: Exactly! For example, we had to do an assessment with a written element and loads of the students finished the test really quickly, which I hadn’t prepared for. I thought it would take a lot longer.

I’d said at the start of the lesson, ‘If you finish the paper, you can either read a book or draw,’ thinking that they would have five minutes at the end. It really felt like they whizzed through the test because they just wanted to sit there and draw. As soon as one person finished, they asked, ‘Miss, can I have some paper?’ 

It felt like immediately the next person thought, ‘I want to draw too,’ and it just spread around the room. Because I hadn’t prepared anything else to fill that time with, I just let it happen. 

They were so silent, so focused and were just playing, in a way. I was thinking, ‘Why do I not leave more space for this to happen?’

There was one student who was busy, busy, busy all the time scribbling on a piece of paper, then they were like, ‘Oh, I want to make it into a square, a rough, squiggly square.’ Then they flipped the paper and started drawing on the back, then noticed that the drawing had transferred to the table and then I think they spilled their water bottle slightly, just by accident. They began pushing the water onto the paper, then tearing away, so it stuck to the table and that created a pattern. I was just watching the whole process and the student essentially ask questions, ‘What happens if I do this? What happens if I do that?’ It was amazing, really.

Joanna: Which is what artists do!

Freya: Yeah, exactly.

Joanna: But there isn’t usually that much space for that within a lesson, necessarily, especially at KS3. 

Freya: Yeah, there’s no space. It really made me think, ‘This is what we need more of.’ I need to find the space to put that into the lessons. Also, just because they are quite young, how many of them just want to draw. 

Joanna: Well, I think we found that out with the art club. It felt a bit weird, but they did just want to draw their own thing. I think for me, it was odd, because I then didn’t know what to do with the outcomes, and I maybe didn’t necessarily like the outcomes, and I didn’t feel like I was delivering what I would like to or should be doing. But actually, we were offering them time and choice.

Freya: Yeah, time and space and choice. Since the project I’ve tried to put in a lot more elements of choice in our projects, which I think has worked really well. But again, interestingly, because that club hasn’t been running this term, I’ve had so many students come up to me going, ‘Miss, is the club on? When’s the club coming back?’ They are really missing having a space to draw and to do what they want to do. 

It definitely made me think again about the restrictions of school and how difficult that is for some students, but also for everybody, sometimes...

Joanna: We visited the Francis Alys Francis Alÿs Ricochets exhibition. I think it’s interesting that that kind of play, in terms of the student you were just describing, came through. It’s like you’ve given them one task, and then what that has actually afforded them is time to do something else, maybe to the detriment of the task.

But it’s interesting that probably, if you’d said, ‘Okay, we’re just going to draw for the next hour,’ it may not have felt as playful as doing the boring tasks that you’d given them as quickly as they could so that they could play.

I know this is a tangent, but I watch my daughter being instructed at swimming lessons every week. They spend the whole lesson – because the water is very cold – asking to get out. At the end they have five minutes and the instructor always says, ‘You can get out or you can play.’ And they’re like, ‘Absolutely, play.’ The play is often exactly the same stuff she was making them do, but because it’s not titled as a task, it feels completely different. 

Freya: Yeah, definitely. I just want to try and be able to open things out, to open topics or questions and to not have everything jam-packed. But it is difficult. I suppose it’s a starting point really, for more experimentation myself, in my teaching practice. 

Joanna: I think what I was trying to ask about was whether that sideways approach or offering a route by not instructing it, by allowing room for those things to happen – specifically, by not asking those things to happen – can help? 

I just wonder if that’s where the space is, in not meeting things head on. Because I think that’s something we noticed in terms of working with people as well, choosing not to butt up against resistance but allowing things to almost go around the side. How you might do that in a classroom to allow for those questions, for that play, to occur.

Freya: In a way, we’re relinquishing a bit of control. But, I think, for me at the moment, that maybe only comes through the experience of having done both. So having done, ‘I’m going to plan everything to a T’ and things go right and also go completely wrong – because sometimes things do just go wrong no matter how well you plan or prepare – but also it’s unpacking what is ‘wrong’ within the art classroom.

Doing this project and keeping a mindful practice since has allowed me to identify those moments more clearly, to notice where the space exists and also how to make room for it. For me, that is rebellion – finding the space.